“Online ist ein Scheißdreck gegen das, was im Leben passiert”

 

Im zweiten Teil des Interviews mit Jason aus dem Leitungsteam der Düsseldorfer Gemeinde Mosaik, sprechen wir wie versprochen über die Herausforderung des Mainstreams, die Trauung von Homosexuellen und den religiösen Pluralismus.

Hier geht es zum ersten Teil.

Daniel: Wenn ihr bei Mosaik so hipp, so am Puls der Zeit seid –  seid ihr dann letztlich nur ununterscheidbar vom gesellschaftlichen Mainstream geworden? Seid ihr darum vielleicht kein Salz mehr, fad, und somit früher oder später überflüssig, so wie viele Landeskirchen es sind?

Jason: Wir leben in einer Zeit der Gleichzeitigkeiten. Wir haben zwar viele Progressive, aber zur gleichen Zeit erstarken Rassismus, Sexismus und Ungerechtigkeiten. Wenn man sagt: “Die Progressiven machen es einfach, die schwimmen mit dem Strom.” Dann sage ich: Nein, ganz sicher nicht. Steh mal öffentlich gegen Ungerechtigkeiten ein. Äußere dich mal gegen die Diskriminierung von Homosexuellen. Das ist nicht so einfach. Das macht dein Projekt nicht erfolgreich.

Es ist also eine vereinfachende Sicht, zu sagen: Ich hab den Mainstream erreicht, jetzt bin ich sicher?

Ja, Beispiel Thema Flüchtlinge. Ab 2015 hat das viele Gemeinden bewegt. Unsere Gemeinde Mosaik auch. Einige von uns sind dann an die EU-Außengrenze gefahren und haben da geholfen. Die haben dann in Griechenland und der Türkei Ersthilfe geleistet. Das sind zum Teil richtig krasse Erfahrungen gewesen. Unser Team hat da richtig dran zu knabbern gehabt. Das ist ja keine einfache Sache.

Nur weil es aus unserer Perspektive fast schon Mainstream-hipp ist, an die EU-Außengrenze zu fahren, ist es noch lange nicht einfach, wenn man da ist.

Genau. Ich glaube, dass es eine Sache ist, eine bestimmte Meinung zu vertreten. Eine andere Sache ist es, in der Welt einen Unterschied zu machen und gesellschaftlichen Wandel mit herbeiführen zu wollen.

Dennoch: Kann es nicht manchmal wiederum faszinierend sein, den „links-grün-liberalen Mainstream“ zu schocken? Also aus Prinzip dagegen zu sein, z.B. gegen Homosexualität? Oder für eine klare Obergrenze? Wie so AfD-Protest-Wähler oder so?

Lass es mich so sagen: Dass wir heute Homosexuelle trauen, das war ein längerer Prozess. Da wirst du dir zuerst in der Leiterschaft einig, dann in der Gemeinde, die Freunde drum rum. Aber es geht halt auch weiter im familiären Kreis. Dann ist das nicht mehr so lustig. Alles was wir online raushauen, ist ein Scheißdreck gegen das, was im Leben passiert. In einer Phase als das bei uns echt krass war, war eine Gastpredigerin aus Estland zu Gast. Die ist unter dem Eindruck, was bei uns passiert, in der Predigt in Tränen ausgebrochen. Dann hat sie gesagt: „Passt auf, das was ihr hier gerade erlebt, ist genau das gleiche, was Homosexuelle sonst auch erleben.“ Und ich glaube, das stimmt zum Teil. Deswegen find ich da nichts sexy dran, einfach mal was zu posten, was bewusst provoziert.

Nochmal eine ganz andere Frage:
Ist eine Kirche, die sich auf eine spezielle Quelle, eben zum Beispiel Jesus und die Bibel, bezieht, nicht aus der Zeit gefallen? Sollten wir nicht Sinn-Sucher-Gemeinschaften bilden, die religiös/dogmatisch ganz offen sind? Die vielleicht noch Gott/das Heilige/das „Mehr“ als Such-Rahmen haben. Nach dem Motto: Was mich inspiriert, und nicht den Menschenrechten oder dem Gebot der Liebe widerspricht, das zählt? Braucht es sowas nicht vor allem in Städten?
 

Das ist ja die Frage nach Pluralität. Ich kann dem viel abgewinnen. Ich finde die Idee des kosmischen Christus wichtig. Ich finde ja die Prozesstheologie geil – die muss ich immer mal anbringen. Die Grundidee: Gott ist im Gespräch mit jedem Menschen. Gott ist Teil in jedem Moment in Allem. Gott ist aber auch größer als Alles. Das führt für mich dazu, zu sagen: Die christliche Tradition ist meine Tradition. Ich habe keinen Grund Buddhist, Moslem oder so zu werden. Aber ich kann sagen, dass Gott in diesen anderen Traditionen wirksam ist. Im Gespräch mit diesen Traditionen kann ich viel lernen, auch über meinen eigenen Glauben.

Also im besten Sinne in-spiriert werden, dass der Geist quasi in einen fährt.

Genau. Ein Zitat, das ich kürzlich las, geht ungefähr so: Ein Gott, der nicht gleichzeitig mein Gott und auch dein Gott ist, ist kein Gott. Ich habe Recht und alle anderen sind falsch, das ist nicht inspirierend. Dennoch bin ich mit beiden Füßen in meiner christlichen Tradition. Dennoch sind wir eine christliche Gemeinde.

Das ist ist jetzt tatsächlich der Knackpunkt! Ich finde das schön, wie du es beschreibst. Vielleicht sehe ich da manches aufgrund meiner Prägung, wo vieles Wunden und noch keine Narben sind, zu eng. Sage: „Oh, ich muss mich von diesem christlichen Ding lösen, alles muss offen sein.“ Warum? Wenn man das so inklusiv lebt, wie das bei euch bei Mosaik klingt, scheint das ein guter Weg zu sein.

Ich muss auch nochmal sagen, dass ich in Gesprächen, eine unglaubliche Wertschätzung für meinen christlichen Glauben bekomme. Das führt nicht dazu, dass das so ein Einheitsbrei wird. Was entsteht, sind ziemlich intensive, kontroverse Gespräche. Was wichtig ist, ist der Gedanke von Versöhnung und Völkerverständigung. Das ist hammer-hart, das ist schwierig. Das Schwierige ist nicht: Pass auf, du glaubst das, ich glaub das. Das Schwierige ist in den Riss reinzugehen und dann auch zusammen zu leben.

Sehr schön gesagt. Dennoch habe ich den Eindruck, dass in vielen Gesprächen mit Nicht-Christen mir auch der Bezug zu Jesus und seiner Geschichte immer unwichtiger wird, weil ich den nicht brauche. Ich umgebe mich nicht viel mit Christen, dadurch kommt es nicht automatisch auf den Tisch. Wir finden eben auch so tierisch viele Dinge über die wir uns aufregen, über die wir diskutieren können. Mein Eindruck: Wir Menschen haben im Grunde dieselben Wünsche und Bedürfnisse. Wenn wir das verstehen, bringt uns das zusammen.

Vor kurzem hatten wir einen Freund zu Gast, der in Jordanien lebt. Wir haben mit ihm über arabische und westliche Mentalitäten und kulturelle Unterschiede gesprochen. Also nicht darüber: Ist jetzt Jesus da am Kreuz oder sind irgendwelche Erzählungen aus dem Koran besser oder wahrer? Auch nicht so ein eher universelles Reden über Gott, Werte und so. Nein, es gibt massive, konkrete Dinge und Traditionen, die ein zusammenleben (nicht reden), herausfordernd und schwierig machen. Aus meinem christlichen Verständnis will ich Gott im Fremden sehen. Also nicht ähnliches wollen, sich nur im Reden verstehen – sondern mit Menschen aus ganz anderen Hintergründen zusammenLEBEN zu können. Das, ganz konkret, fordert mich heraus.

Nach diesem wirklich erhellenden, nachdenklich-machenden Gespräch kann ich Jason nur nochmal für seine Offenheit danken.
Liebe Leser, besucht doch die Website von Mosaik, deren Angebote, hört den Remixpodcast, den sie regelmäßig ins Internet pusten. Gute Sachen, die die machen.
Bei mir bleibt es (noch) ein Traum, einmal ein Teil von so einer Gemeinde sein zu können.

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